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carrisr
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Location: Stone City, IA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:17 am Post subject: Oxygen |
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For those of you using pure O2, I have a few questions about how you are doing it:
1. Do you oxygenate the starter only, just the wort before pitching, or both?
2. Do you measure the flow rate or just wing it?
3. How long, what rate, what volume of starter or wort?
4. Do you change the above for Lagers vs Ales? If so, what amounts?
There seems to be a lot of conflicting advice out there on oxygenating and I'm looking for real-world suggestions.
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Randy Carris
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BrewHound
Joined: 24 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Randy,
1) Since I use a stir plate for startings, I only do the wort. However, if you don't use a stir plate then would probably be a good idea (an occassional shaking will also suffice).
2) Due to using one of the mini-oxygen systems "The Oxynator" without a regulator, this is not possible for me. So I try to keep the same oxygenation by slowly opening until I see a steady stream of bubles.
3) Then I oxygenate each 5 gal pail for 2 mins.
4) Do not do lagers currently, so maybe someone else can chime in on that.
Note: Most of the stuff I have read lately say that it is better to airate then oxygenate wort. This will reduce the risk of oxidation of wort. However, issue with airation is increased possiblity of contaimation using most airation methods. |
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brownbeard
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 385
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I airate, rather than using oxygen. I use the cheap aquarium stones, and dispose of them after each batch. You can actually drop the aquarium stone into sanitizer (while attached to the tube) and draw some sanitizer through it, sanitizing it. As soon as you turn the aquarium pump on, it pushes the sanitizer back through the stone.
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DrPaulsen
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Oxygen |
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| Quote: |
1. Do you oxygenate the starter only, just the wort before pitching, or both?
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I just oxygenate the wort before pitching, although I aerate the starter with a stir-plate. Also, I rarely oxygenate worts smaller than 1.060.
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2. Do you measure the flow rate or just wing it?
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I just wing it based on the bubbling activity at the surface of the wort.
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3. How long, what rate, what volume of starter or wort?
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Starter volume - whatever the mrmalty.com calculator recommends.
O2 duration - 1 sec per gravity point (1.060 = 60 secs)
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4. Do you change the above for Lagers vs Ales? If so, what amounts?
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I typically double the amount of 02 with lagers.
Also, I use the Oxynater kit and store the stone and tubing in a closed jar of rubbing alcohol to sanitize it.
I've never heard of anyone actually noticing oxidized flavors in a beer due to excessive oxygenating of the wort. I've heard several people worry about it, but no one actually experience it.
This is an interesting topic because the guys at White Labs & Wyeast both recommend using pure O2 to try and reach 10-12 ppm dissolved O2 (8 ppm is the max possible with air). On the other hand several famous German breweries (e.g., Weihenstephan) just use filtered air. I suspect that by simply increasing your pitching rate, the same results could be achieved. |
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carrisr
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Location: Stone City, IA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Oxygen |
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Thanks for the input guys! if anyone else wants to jump in it'd be interesting to see the differences.
| DrPaulsen wrote: |
I've never heard of anyone actually noticing oxidized flavors in a beer due to excessive oxygenating of the wort. I've heard several people worry about it, but no one actually experience it.
This is an interesting topic because the guys at White Labs & Wyeast both recommend using pure O2 to try and reach 10-12 ppm dissolved O2 (8 ppm is the max possible with air). On the other hand several famous German breweries (e.g., Weihenstephan) just use filtered air. I suspect that by simply increasing your pitching rate, the same results could be achieved. |
Yeah, the yeast companies both say that Ales should be at 8-12ppm and Lagers around 15ppm. But I've not seen anything reliable on how much O2 at a given flow rate for a given time gives you Xppm. Like you, I figure OG probably plays a role.
I've also seen some people who claim it's very difficult to over-oxygenate, while others who claim using too much O2 leads to "thinner" tasting beers. I figure it's best to go with what the yeast guys say, but still don't know how to achieve that without buying a $160 Dissolved Oxygen meter.
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Randy Carris
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tompb
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
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Location: CR IA
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DrPaulsen
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting that article, Tom, it was a good read. The uncertainties highlighted by Mr Wizard are part of the reason I would like to do a controlled DOE and subsequent tech topic on both wort aeration and pitching rates. For a common wort, it would be interesting to see if people can detect flavor variations due to different aeration techniques. I'm thinking you'd want to do this with a delicately flavored beer (e.g. blonde or cream ale) and use WLP001 since it is so popular. |
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tompb
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 16777215
Location: CR IA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Jamil has talked about this as well. I would have to try and find the right show and listen to it again. He does say not to over do it, but I don't remember exactly why.
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Runamok Brewing
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carrisr
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Location: Stone City, IA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Tom,
Yeah, Jamil and Palmer did a show on aeration/oxygenation. Unfortunately they were no more specific than the BYO article. I realize that it's a complex topic with no one size fits all answer, but I was hoping they would at least give some starting guidelines. Their end advice was "experiment to find what works for you". That gives me no clue on where to start.
This seems to be a topic that hasn't been much researched yet. It seems a bit overdue, so I hope someone does a serious study of it. Everyone agrees that we need to get some oxygen into our wort, but no one seems to agree on amount or method.
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Randy Carris
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Mr T
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 404
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:05 am Post subject: Oxygen |
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Overthinking it... Relax have a home brew
From: carrisr <brew-tech@crbeernuts.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:35 AM
To: brew-tech@crbeernuts.org
Subject: Re: Oxygen
Tom,
Yeah, Jamil and Palmer did a show on aeration/oxygenation. Unfortunately they were no more specific than the BYO article. I realize that it's a complex topic with no one size fits all answer, but I was hoping they would at least give some starting guidelines. Their end advice was "experiment to find what works for you". That gives me no clue on where to start.
This seems to be a topic that hasn't been much researched yet. It seems a bit overdue, so I hope someone does a serious study of it. Everyone agrees that we need to get some oxygen into our wort, but no one seems to agree on amount or method.
Randy Carris
Trouble Brewing
Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
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mrT (big T)
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carrisr
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Location: Stone City, IA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Travis,
I never over-think things! I mean...wait, I don't know...maybe you have a point there....what does everyone else think? 
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Randy Carris
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Matt F
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 705
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: |
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I try not to over think it. I just follow the insturctions that came with the device I use to aerate.
When I first started I just shook the heck out of the carboy. That worked OK except for high gravity beers had trouble finishing. It is also a bit risky to be shaking a 6.5 gallon glass carboy around.
Then Larry bought an airstone setup with an aquarium pump which worked great. We never had any issues hitting final gravity with it. We usually would aerate 5 gallons for about 30 minutes with it. The problem with it was all the foaming.
When Larry moved I bought a regulator and airstone to use with the little oxygen tanks from the hardware store. I really like it as it is straight O2 through a filter and you only need a couple minutes to aerate. This does not cause all the foaming you get with the aquarium pump.
The majority of advice is to make sure you get enough oxygen in to the wort and not to be to concerned with over aeration.
Like T said, relax, don't worry and have a homebrew.
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Matt Franklin
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