Priming sugar 101

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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby andrewmaixner » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:27 pm

You could degas with a wine whip / drill while keeping a slow CO2 fill going into the bucket. I presume that the off gassing CO2 would also help with keeping O2 away at the start, at least.
Or use a carboy and whip/drill.
Then carb for the desired volume with the presumption of zero dissolved CO2?
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby czubak » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:42 am

Not looking to make this more complicated. Just want to add the proper amount of whatever sugar I fancy and not have bottle bombs months later after sitting at room temp.
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby daryl » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:57 am

FYI -The latest issue of BYO has an article on priming; have not read it yet. But I will soon as I am ready to bottle some Porter.
In the Fridge/On Tap: Salted Caramel Porter
In the barrel/conditioning:
In the bucket: P-nut Brittle Ale, Blueberry and Blk Rasp. Mead; Tangerine Wheat; Spont. Funk; Swarthy Beagle
In the queue: Pils Urquell Clone, American Wheat
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby czubak » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:05 am

daryl wrote:FYI -The latest issue of BYO has an article on priming; have not read it yet. But I will soon as I am ready to bottle some Porter.

I will check it out. Thanks Daryl
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby UndeadFred » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:12 pm

Well, pitching a nominal amount of sugar "at room temperature" won't give you bottle bombs, Chris.. we all thought you wanted to perfect the technique.

If you start looking at the range of sugar needed versus temperature it's not super exact or critical anyway!

I would maybe be concerned about using a calculator at 68F and then the next day putting it out in a 85F+ garage.. but you won't do that... I've had really good results since the day I started using the NB calc (same as many others; acknowledged) and just putting them in that stable corner of my basement.. like perfect results, actually....

SO you got me interested..

for 2.4 vols (IPA)--- sucrose-- 5 gallons

40F: 2.52 oz or 0.39 cups
50F: 3.05 oz or 0.42 cups
60F: 3.48 oz or 0.48 cups
70F: 3.85 oz or 0.53 cups
80F: 4.17 oz or 0.57 cups..

So.. if you pitch at 80 and go to 40F you could have issues.. but to go from say 60F to 70F.. it's very little difference..

Alternatively lets look at 70F (3.85 oz) at 60F.. comes in right at 2.55 vols ... so there is quite a bit of actual wiggle room here unless you are very sloppy...

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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby czubak » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:22 pm

UndeadFred wrote:Well, pitching a nominal amount of sugar "at room temperature" won't give you bottle bombs, Chris.. we all thought you wanted to perfect the technique.

If you start looking at the range of sugar needed versus temperature it's not super exact or critical anyway!

I would maybe be concerned about using a calculator at 68F and then the next day putting it out in a 85F+ garage.. but you won't do that... I've had really good results since the day I started using the NB calc (same as many others; acknowledged) and just putting them in that stable corner of my basement.. like perfect results, actually....

Fred

That's the problem Fred, I cold crash, it's not room temp. The few times I have bottled I add sugar based on room temp (or highest temp post fermentaion) and I get way overcarbed beer if it sits in the basement for months on end, so yes, I think it is critical and that's why I started this thread.

I haven't tried it yet using say 40 degrees (much less sugar) to see if long term it will not over carb. I plan to do this on a few bombers of a Schwarzbier I made last night. Date them and let them sit for an extended period and if it works, that will be my go to method.

Reason I want to dial this in A LOT better than I have is I want to bottle condition stouts, belgians and saisons for several months, maybe even a year or more for example.
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby UndeadFred » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:49 pm

Okay.. well I don't know about priming at 40F. I'm not that concerned with clarity in my beers, nor sediment at the bottom of the bottles... so I let the bottles cold crash themselves for a few days before serving in the fridge. I do that in kegs as well, actually...

It *should* work... and you may have very well answered your own question if you overcarbed by priming for the 68F temperature while at 40F at bottling. I would imagine that you could cold crash and then let the batch warm to room temperature (say overnight in a bottling bucket) and then prime at normal temperature.. I don't think you'd hurt anything that way... that may be another option...

But yeah.. never really thought of priming at 40F.. the yeast wouldn't even be awake at that temp.. interesting question...

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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby whitedj » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:30 am

Not a terrible price... although more than most homebrewers will spend on something that isn't really needed. http://rapidswholesale.com/review/product/list/id/15442/

I was looking at some pro-brewer forums on this issue and general consensus is to use devices like above to measure carbonation level before packaging. Although these assume 'standard' beers so they are not entirely accurate for strong beers, and are realistically only accurate to ~0.2 volumes if you take care in your measurements.

Logic to me would indicate that fermentation temperature would likely be an indicator as to how much dissolved CO2 is present unless you are aging at a significantly higher temperature for a long period of time, or under pressure. CO2 in head space I wouldn't think would be enough to cause significant changes to CO2 content of a beer.

--another option for over carbing a beer would be a low level infection. It may be worth while to bottle something ... like a cream ale... and let it sit for a year or so to get the 'nasties' to grow and show all their flavors
The guy who submitted a barley wine in the Furious competition...
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby czubak » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:15 am

I think I saw Quinton with one of those last year. Pretty slick.

Low level infection is a very valid point. :lol:
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby UndeadFred » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:14 pm

This is now going on as a thread on Home Brew Network on Facebook.

Here is the theory over there and I have to give it some merit: Cold crashing suspends more CO2 in the water in the beer. Therefore, you prime less because more CO2 is already in there. So my suggestion to let it warm up and then prime at 68F might not work and still leave the beer overcarbonated.

I'm starting to be a bit fascinated by this as almost any other topic in beer brewing you look up, right or wrong, has a thousand opinions out there but it almost seems while Googling this topic no one really knows.. ;)

I need to bottle my Saison because I'm out of kegs currently.. and I am tempted to "secondary" a gallon of it and cold crash it and try a few experiments. I might not though because I've been awfully busy outside of work.

Off topic: But for the "fest" can I bring maybe a case of bottles (I could live without getting them back) instead of a keg? I'd like to contribute something but as usual I don't have my crap together in time... I can even bottle a few off the kegs I have...

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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby Matt F » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:15 pm

Bottles are definitely welcome! Beer does not have to be in a keg.
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby czubak » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:58 am

Plan to bring my saison in a bottle. Unsure how many I will have, but there will be some
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby UndeadFred » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:38 pm

Yup.. I just bottled up a Rye Saison. First one. Seems like it will at least be passable. It SMELLS fantastic. If it is good, the 29th is just about the right time to serve it.. I will bring a case... maybe mix in a few bottles from past brews as well... we will see. I let it ferment warm. I wanted to try it.. still seems to smell good.

Being my first Saison, I was rather amazed at my low FG.. it's...ahem.. a lot stronger (ABV) and dryer than any computer program predicted! ;) 1.063 down to 1.002...!

I was thinking of dividing it up and running some experiments for your Priming Sugar issue.. but I was lucky to even get what I got done last night. Certain pieces of equipment I might of forgotten to clean last time I kegged and I might have broken a bottle or two last night. I hadn't also bottled in so long that I had a layer of dust to wash out of 50 bottles too.. normally I'd rinse and sanitize. Slow going last night. All turned out okay, tho... Next batch.

I'm thinking of a big batch of Maris Otter SMaSH of some sort, kegging 3 gals (in my cute little 3 gal keg!) and trying a few different tricks on maybe 3 gallons. I want to experiment with fining agents too, so the bottling experiments will not be any extra work....

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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby Matt F » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:19 pm

Tip on bottle storage. Keep clean bottles in cases upside down if possible. Less to rinse since dust does not crawl up. I keep mine in old Leiny boxes.
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Coffee Chocolate Latte Stout
Peanut Butter Cup Stout
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Re: Priming sugar 101

Postby czubak » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:41 am

Bringing this back up. I have a couple high ABV batches (9-10%) I was planning to bottle off the keg, store long term. 9 months minimum, year or longer if it's as good as I hope it will be. Still makes me nervous they will go flat. It is by far the best bet in my head to get carbonation where you want it.

If I try to bottle condition and use priming sugar, I have read where some add some yeast to make sure the sugars do their thing. If so how much yeast is needed?
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